您当前的位置:首页 > 网贴翻译 Tips:使用 ← → 键即可快速浏览其他文章
为什么中国能够达到比印度更高的内部实力?
2020-01-24 夏丶沐瑾 8 收藏 纠错&举报
原文标题:
原文地址: https://www.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/awt0d3/question_why_has_china_managed_to_reach_a_higher/
译文简介:印度是一个相当分裂的国家。许多不同的种族群体说着许多不同的语言,信奉不同的宗教,事实上,在印度次大陆的大部分历史上,印度次大陆大部分被分裂成不同的竞争王国。今天,印度共和国存在重大的内部分歧,中央政府很难采取任何行动。另一方面,尽管中国有相似之处(许多不同的民族、语言、宗教、不同的地形、庞大的人口、近代中国国家历史上并不统一),但它已经获得了更高程度的内部权力,以至于它可以将成千上万的weiwuer聚集在集中营里,并且没有面临像印度所处理的内部分裂那样的局面。
raytracerfvf
According to Francis Fukuyama in his “Origins of political power”, in China, the priestly class were always subjugated to the to the Emperor and thus prevented from forming a religion independent from the ruling class. Unchallenged, the ruling class concentrated and centralized power resulting in strong authoritarian modes of government without any accountability.

弗朗西斯·福山在其《政治权力的起源》一书中指出,在中国,僧侣阶级总是屈从于皇帝,因此他们无法形成一个独立于统治阶级的宗教。统治阶级的集权和集权统治无可置疑地形成了强有力的专制政府模式,没有任何问责制。

raytracerfvf
India on the other hand had the priests & teachers coagulate into the strong Brahmin caste. The warrior caste was kept in check by the rule of law as interpreted by the Brahmin. This in effect prevented the formation of a strong state and an unified India.

另一方面,印度让牧师和导师们凝聚成强大的婆罗门种姓。正如婆罗门的解释的那样, 武士(刹帝利)阶层受到法律的约束。这实际上阻止了印度成为一个强大统一的国家。

raytracerfvf
The book traces and contrasts the history of both countries in terms of power balances. Well worth reading.

这本书从权力平衡的角度追溯并对比了两国的历史。值得一读。

vzenov
Also remember that China has the world's single largest ethnic population speaking a single language - Han Chinese speaking Mandarin. That is 900 million people speaking Mandarin as their main language. The "other" language is Cantonese spoken in southern China by some 80 million.

同时也要记住,中国拥有世界上单一语言人口最多的民族——说普通话的汉族人。也就是说,有9亿人把普通话作为他们的主要语言。“另一种”语言是在中国南方约8000万人说的粤语。

vzenov
Finally there is a sense of understanding in China - which is further reinforced by state propaganda - that China falls only when disunited. History has shown that China as a civilization endures and is great but when disunity strikes it is weak and falls prey to external invaders.

最后,中国有一种理解,即中国只有在分裂时才会衰落——这种理解在国家宣传中得到了进一步强化。历史证明,中国作为一个文明古国,是伟大的,但当不团结的时候,它就会变得软弱,成为外来侵略者的牺牲品。

[deleted]
Quite simple, ethnic homogenity. Han Chinese are over 92% of the total population, and there has always been a sense of unity between this people. In India this is not the case, you have several ethnic groups, relics of a several millennia old caste system, various different religions forming large percentages of the population. This will inherently cause instability.

很简单,种族同质性。汉族人占总人口的92%以上,他们之间一直有一种团结的感觉。在印度,情况并非如此,你有好几个种群,几千年的旧种姓制度,各种不同的宗教在人口中占很大比例。这将从本质上导致不稳定。

[deleted]
We can see this in other parts of the world, the more culturally, ethnically and religiously homogenous a nation is, generally speaking the more stable it will be.

我们可以在世界其他地方看到这一点,一个国家在文化、种族和宗教上越是同质化,一般来说就越稳定。

[deleted]
India is not a concept that existed until 1947. Before that, it is at best, a culture of the subcontinent, which does not dictate or require any political structure. Yes there are legends how powerful Indian kings were, but in reality the concept of unity is very weak.

印度这个概念直到1947年才出现。在此之前,它充其量是一种次大陆的文化,它不决定或要求任何政治结构。是的,传说中印度国王是多么强大,但实际上团结的概念是非常薄弱的。

[deleted]
Politically, a unified China is a concept first raised in 220BC. At the time the Han ethnicity and scope of "China" are both very limited. Over the next 2000 years both gradually grow, as more people learned the culture (language, history, books etc) and more land is conquered/merged.

在政治上,统一中国的概念最早提出于公元前220年。当时的汉族和“中国”的范围都很有限。在接下来的2000多年里,随着越来越多的人学习文化(语言、历史、书籍等),更多的土地被征服/合并,两者都逐渐发展。

[deleted]
I think a lot of people in this thread got it wrong. Han is not just an ethnicity, it is the "default", meaning it is inclusive, anyone learn the language and culture can identify themselves as Han. The most chaotic and fractured period in recorded Chinese history is called "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms" period around 900 AD. This is the period so many people migrated south from the north, eventually learning Chinese language, picking Chinese last names, joining Han and greatly expanded the concept of Han.

在这个帖子里,我想很多人都搞错了。汉族不仅仅是一个民族,它是“系统默认值”,意味着它是范围广泛的,任何学习语言和文化的人都可以认定他们自己是汉族。中国历史上有记载的最混乱和分裂的时期是公元900年前后的“五代十国”时期。这一时期,许多人从北方迁移到南方,最终学习了汉语,选择了汉语的姓氏,加入了汉族,极大地扩展了汉族的概念。

[deleted]
Before anyone says small countries are easier to rule than big countries, so China needs a dictatorship and an iron fist because it’s so big and strong while Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau and Singapore were so small so obviously they’d be rich, this (common) argument flies against evidence. Most small countries are underdeveloped dumps, while some of the world’s most populous countries, including Japan and the US, are some of the richest. Also, Taiwan is hardly a small country. It’s hard sometimes for Westerners to conceive just how populous “small” Asian powers are. 23 million people live on the island of Taiwan. There are almost as many Taiwanese as Swedes, Finns, and Norwegians combined. It also isn’t that dictatorship is required to make countries developed - South Korea and China are the only countries that ever developed at double digit rates under dictatorship.

之前有人说小国比大国更容易统治,所以中国需要独裁和铁腕,因为它是如此之大,而台湾、香港、澳门和新加坡是如此之小,以至于它们显然会变得富有,这种(普遍的)论点与证据不符。大多数小国都是不发达的垃圾场,而一些世界上人口最多的国家,包括日本和美国,却是最富有的国家。此外,台湾也不小。对于西方人来说,有时很难想象“小”亚洲大国到底有多人口稠密。2300万人生活在台湾岛。台湾人几乎是瑞典人、芬兰人和挪威人的总和。这也不是说独裁是国家发展所必需的——韩国和中国是唯一在独裁统治下以两位数的速度发展的国家。

[deleted]
Chinese culture is uniquely suited for industrial business relations. There isn’t anything more to it. PRC is not a genius government, just one that gradually loosened restraints.

中国文化非常适合工业贸易关系。没有别的了。中华人民共和国不是一个天才政府,只是一个逐步放宽了限制的政府。

the_neogeoist
If you look at a river map of China you can see that most of the current "Han" core is dominated by two long, continuous, mostly-navigable rivers: the Yellow River and the Yangtze. This facilitated thousands of years of trade and conquest which eventually led to a unified culture. You also have the Pearl River in the south, which is even still today largely the home of Cantonese culture (and the North/South divide has been a thing for all of Chinese history).

如果你看一下中国的河流地图,你会发现现在的“汉族”核心大部分是由两条长长的、连续的、大部分可以通航的河流所主宰的: 黄河和长江。这促进了数千年的贸易和征服,最终形成了统一的文化。南方也有珠江,即使在今天,珠江仍然是广东文化的主要发源地(南北分界在中国历史上一直存在)。

the_neogeoist
Compare that to a river map of India, which is less integrated. You have the Indus River valley to the northwest, but that is separated from the others (and is currently Pakistan). The Ganges River vaguely unifies Hindi speakers in the upper parts and Bengali speakers in the lower parts, but only vaguely. All of the other rivers are independent of one another and separated by mountainous areas or raised plateaus, making trade and conquest less "easy" than the Chinese situation. This allowed smaller cultural groups to form around those systems and maintain their identities longer, up to the present day.

与印度的河流图相比,印度河流集合程度较低。西北有印度河流域,但它与其他流域分开(现在是巴基斯坦的)。恒河模糊地把讲印地语的人集中在上游地区,把讲孟加拉语的人集中在下游地区,但只是模糊地集中在一起。所有其他的河流都是相互独立的,被山区或高地分开,这使得贸易和征服比中国更不“容易”。这使得较小的文化群体得以围绕这些体系形成,并在较长时间内保持自己的身份,直到今天。

Suavecake12
Because democracy is not the most efficient form of government for development of national identity and growth in wealth.

因为民主不是发展国家认同感和发展财富的最有效的政府形式。

Suavecake12
I'm far from being an expert at India's modern history. But one aspect of China's internal development stems from the result of foreign interference during Chinese modern history.

我远不足以作为一个印度现代史的专家。但中国内部发展的其中一个方面源于中国近代史上外国干涉所导致的结果。

Suavecake12
Even though the Anglosphere like to talk about Chinese separatism as something popular. HK indpendence only has like 3% support of HK population. Immediate Taiwan Independence has like 8% of Taiwan's population.

尽管英语文化圈喜欢将讨论中国的分裂主义作为流行的事情。香港独立只有大约3%的香港人口支持。直接的台湾独立大约占台湾人口的8%。

Suavecake12
I guess it's pretty easy for the Chinese to be more unified, when basically the entire Anglosphere cast China and Chinese as the strategic competitor

我想中国人更容易团结起来,因为基本上整个英语文化圈都把中国和中国人视为战略竞争对手。

lindsaylbb
I would say it starts from the warring states. The Wu and Yue are of Yue ethnics, the Qins are regarded as barbarians by people of middle land. But all of them fought for the control of the middle land, their history intertwined, cultures were shared, prisoners taken, and eventually became one united empire.

我想说的是这源于战国时期。吴国和越国是越民族,秦国人被中原人视为野蛮人。但他们都为争夺中部地区的控制权而战,他们的历史相互交织,文化共享,战俘被俘虏,最终成为一个统一的帝国。

lindsaylbb
Then came Han dynasty, a strong empire in which the identity is matured, if you don’t know by the name already. And they started pushing Confucianism, an ideology formed during the warring states and succeeded a lot from Shang culture, which eventually became the philosophy of Han people. 

接下来来到汉朝,一个强大的帝国,它的发展已经成熟,即使你还不知道它的名字。但他们开始推行儒家思想,这是一种形成于战国时期的思想,从商朝文化中继承了很多东西,最终成为了汉人的哲学。

Fermented_Onions
Yeah, but that divide is impressively minor compared to, say, the middle east's regional disputes. China is an impressively stable nation historically. It's government's aren't, but the nation is.

没错,但与中东地区的斗争相比,这种分歧小得令人印象深刻。中国在历史上是一个令人印象深刻地稳定国家。不是政府的稳定团结,而是国家的稳定团结。

Fermented_Onions
Because China is Homogeneous, both ethnically, culturally, politically, and historically. India is a mix of many religions, many cultures, many ideologies, and a deep history of fighting each other. I would suggest looking at historical maps of empires in the region.

因为中国在种族、文化、政治和历史上都是同质的。印度是混合了许多宗教,文化,许多意识形态,和一个有深远的内部斗争史,我建议大家看看该地区的历史地图。

Fermented_Onions
For lack of a better description, India suffers from "africa/ middle east" syndrome, where the nation exists, and is united, but is more the loose coalition of a bunch of separate cultural groups. If you look at the history of India, it's always been a bunch of smaller states, kinda like Greece. Even under the muhgal empire, India was never fully united (Arguably, even today it isn't; Bangladesh and Pakistan are part of the former territory known as India).

由于缺乏更好的描述,印度像患上了“非洲/中东”综合症,在那里,这个国家是存在的,是统一的,但更多的是一群独立的文化群体的松散联盟。如果你回顾印度的历史,你会发现它一直都是一些小国家,有点像希腊。即使在莫卧儿帝国统治下,印度也从未完全统一过(可以说,即使在今天也不是; 孟加拉国和巴基斯坦是前印度领土的一部分)。

Fermented_Onions
If you look at China's history, its always been dominated by singular states. Even in times of warring states, they were more "year of 4 emperors", aka power struggles and dynastic struggles, than revolutions. China has never not had the aim of being united as China.

如果你回顾一下中国的历史,就会发现它一直是由单一国家统治的。即使在战国时期,他们也更多的是“四帝之年”,即权力斗争和王朝斗争,而不是革命。中国一直都有着统一的目标。

korpy_vapr
u/BreaksFull I want to question some of your assumptions on your post.

打断一下,我想对您发表的文章里面的假设提出质疑。

korpy_vapr
Today the Indian Republic has major internal divides and its difficult for the central government to do anything.

今天,印度共和国内部分歧严重,中央政府很难有所作为。

korpy_vapr
What makes you assume so? I mean dissent is par of course in any democracy right? Let me clear some misconception the vast majority of the Indian population wants to stay in the union and understands it's beneficial.

你为什么这么想?我意思是反对的声音在任何民主政权里面是司空见惯的,不是吗?让我理清楚一些误区,大部分的印度群众是想要待在一个统一团结的国度,他们知道这是有益的。

korpy_vapr
Is it because that India's commitment to being a democratic republic has limited its ability to crack down on the population.

这是因为印度的承诺成为了民主共和国限制了他们去镇压这些群体的能力吗?

lindsaylbb
Not just that. The Keju exam made sure the elites speak the same language as well. There has always been a standard language to be used in tests, writing poems, and between officials of different provinces and the emperors. The standards of course, is different from dynasty to dynasty’s

不仅仅科举考试可以确保精英也讲同样的语言,同时在考试过程中,在写诗词歌赋时候,在不同省份的官员和帝王之间,都一直使用标准的语言。当然,各个朝代的标准也不同。

symmetry81
They're all "Han" but that doesn't mean they're still the same ethnically. Most regions have their own spoken language even if they do all share the same written language, though with mass communication basically everyone can speak Mandarin these days too. Sort of like modern Arabic or Latin circa 1000 AD, where everything was written the same way in France and Spain even if it was pronounced in entirely different ways.

他们都是“汉族”,但这并不意味着他们仍然是同一种族。大多数地区都有自己的口语,即使他们都有相同的书面语言,尽管在大众传播的今天,基本上每个人都能说普通话。有点像公元1000年左右的现代阿拉伯语或拉丁语,在法国和西班牙,所有的东西都是用同样的方式写的,即使发音完全不同。

lindsaylbb
I read something about “Qiang” ethnics one time. That the term Qiang people never really refers to one single ethnics. But rather it’s a loose term used by Han to describe the nomadic ethnics of the north. As the old Qiang people gets Hanized and assimilates to be Han, a new group of Nomadic people is named as Qiang.

我一度了解过关于羌族的事情,那个时期的羌族从来不真的是指单一的种族。而是汉民族用来描述北方游牧民族的一个松散的术语。随着原来的羌族慢慢地被汉化和同化成汉人,一个新的游牧民族被命名为羌族。
 
环球旅行
请文明理性发言,请不要发布违规评论,包括但不限于(诋毁、极端、敏感、歧视、色情、引战、人身攻击)等,如发现此类评论,请不要回复,直接举报。网站意见建议请点击 意见反馈
我要纠错&举报
文章地址
纠错类型
备注说明
 
我要举报
文章地址
举报理由
 
打赏评论
1、如果您喜欢此评论,可以对其打赏
2、不鼓励对违规评论(包括但不限于违法、辱骂、歧视等)进行打赏,系统将可能回收对其的打赏
充值