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日本将中国宣传为比拥有核武器的朝鲜更大的威胁
2020-01-23 小馒头 4 收藏 纠错&举报
原文标题:Japan promotes China as bigger threat than nuclear-armed North Korea
原文地址:https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/d9vpom/japan_promotes_china_as_bigger_threat_than/
译文简介:朝鲜存在的唯一原因是,中国不会容忍一个亲西方的朝鲜与他们直接接壤。当中国和苏联介入并将联合国赶回三八线时,联合国部队已经占领了朝鲜半岛的大部分地区。朝鲜不过是中国和韩国之间的一个傀儡缓冲国。数百万朝鲜人由于中国而世世代代生活在贫困和压迫中。
Gyrant
The only reason North Korea exists at all is that China wouldn't tolerate a west-aligned Korea to border them directly. UN forces had captured most of the peninsula when the Chinese and Soviets intervened and beat the UN back to the 38th parallel.
North Korea is little more than a puppet buffer state between China and South Korea. Millions of North Koreans have lived in poverty and oppression for generations BECAUSE. OF. CHINA.

朝鲜存在的唯一原因是,中国不会容忍一个亲西方的朝鲜与他们直接接壤。当中国和苏联介入并将联合国赶回三八线时,联合国部队已经占领了朝鲜半岛的大部分地区。
朝鲜不过是中国和韩国之间的一个傀儡缓冲国。数百万朝鲜人由于中国而世世代代生活在贫困和压迫中。

leofreak16
I'm kind of ignorant here, why is bordering a west-aligned country such a big deal?

我有点无知,为什么与一个与西方结盟的国家接壤是一件大事?

mondeir
A buffer zone. Less likely for a war as you have to cross another country.

朝鲜是一个缓冲区。不太可能发生战争,因为你必须穿越另一个国家。

GhostFish
More than just a buffer against war. NK serves as a buffer against outside influence in general, allowing China stronger control over its own people.

朝鲜不仅仅是用来缓冲战争的。朝鲜总体上起到了抵御外部影响的缓冲作用,使中国能够对自己的人民有更强的控制力。

ShellOilNigeria
Because if China didn't have North Korea, the west could easily sneak in more assets (larger scale) in efforts to destabilize China.
More propaganda, more baiting, more speaking out against the government, more chances of influencing public opinion.
Military, more spies, more hidden weapons caches in the event of staged uprisings or "terrorism" attacks, more "assaults/threats" against Chinese government assets, etc.
Those are two easy scenarios. There are more but the overall point of why China "needs" North Korea, is because with North Korea, it makes it that much harder for the West to destabilize China.

因为如果中国没有朝鲜与之接壤,西方可以轻易地潜入更多资产(规模更大)来破坏中国的稳定。
更多的宣传,更多的诱饵,更多的反对政府,更多的机会影响公众舆论。
军事上,更多的间谍,更多的隐藏武器,在发生暴动或“恐怖主义”袭击时,更多的针对中国资产的“攻击/威胁”等等。
这是两个简单的设想。中国之所以“需要”朝鲜,还有更多原因,但总的来说,是因为有了朝鲜,西方就更难破坏中国的稳定。

MeetYourCows
This is the reason now, but there was also a more pressing reason for their intervention in the Korean war back when it happened - they were fearful of an invasion immediately after NK falls. These fears appear to be well-founded given MaCArthur advocated for war against China as well, including the use of nuclear weapons against them.

这就是现在的原因,但还有一个更紧迫的原因促使他们在朝鲜战争爆发时介入——他们担心朝鲜陷落后会立即遭到入侵。这些担忧似乎是有根据的,因为麦克阿瑟(二战时美军高级将领)也主张对中国发动战争,包括对中国使用核武器。

wololoyo
MaCArthur advocated for war against China as well
US was already at war/ had been attacked by China at that point though. 

麦克阿瑟也主张对中国开战。
那时美国已经处于战争状态/已经被中国攻击了。
Das_Orakel_vom_Berge
Not really. MacArthur was advocating for a drive into China well before the People's 'Volunteer' Army got involved. The nuke bit was after, though.

不是真的。早在人民“志愿军”介入之前,麦克阿瑟就一直主张进军中国。不过,核攻击是在那之后。

Gremlinator_TITSMACK
Japan invaded China twice. Both times through the Korean peninsula. China is protected by sea, mountains, deserts and Siberia itself, but Manchuria and Korea are China's Achilles' heel.

日本入侵中国两次。两次穿越朝鲜半岛。中国受到海洋、山脉、沙漠和西伯利亚的保护,但满洲和朝鲜是中国的致命弱点。

michaelclas
Having a Western aligned country on their borders is like a communist Mexico on America’s borders. It’s an existential threat and could be used to stage on invasion/ attack directly on Chinese soil.

一个与西方结盟的国家在他们的边界上就像一个共产主义的墨西哥在美国的边界上一样。这是一个存亡威胁,可以直接利用朝鲜入侵/攻击中国领土。

BubbaTee
Yup, just look at how America freaked out when communists took over an island 90 miles away from Florida.
Obviously Cuba was never any threat to invade the US, but just their proximity was a problem.

是的,看看当共产主义者占领离佛罗里达90英里远的一个岛屿时,美国是多么的疯狂。
显然,古巴从来没有威胁要入侵美国,但古巴离美国太近是一个问题。

CaptainVaticanus
Because America often keeps military bases in allied countries and that would make China uncomfortable. Same reason Russia dislikes west-aligned countries on its borders

因为美国经常在盟国保留军事基地,这会让中国感到不舒服。这也是俄罗斯不喜欢与西方结盟的国家的原因。

vmedhe2
That seems less an America problem and more a China and Russia problem...After all if your pissing off every one of your neighbors to the point that they invite the guy from the other side of the world in to protect themselves,you might want to rethink your foreign policy.

这似乎不是美国的问题,而是中国和俄罗斯的问题。毕竟,如果你惹怒了你的每一个邻居,以至于他们邀请了来自世界另一端的家伙来保护他们,你可能需要重新考虑你的外交政策。

Franfran2424
USA has a very extensive background of invading countries, so I would say its actually a USA problem.

美国有一个非常广泛的入侵国家的背景,所以我会说,这实际上是美国的问题。

BubbaTee
That seems less an America problem and more a China and Russia problem
It's an everyone problem. The US shit its pants when they found out the Soviets were putting military assets in Cuba.
The US had been fucking around in Cuba so much that they turned to the Soviets from the other side of the world, but it didn't make America rethink its foreign policy.

这似乎不是美国的问题,而是中国和俄罗斯的问题。
这是每个人的问题。当美国发现苏联在古巴部署军事资产时,他们大发雷霆。
美国一直在古巴胡闹,以至于古巴求助于世界另一端的苏联,但这并没有让美国重新考虑其外交政策。

vmedhe2
Once, now we have détente with Cuba, so the argument is no longer applicable. Cuba is no longer in the mood for a new conflict and neither is the US or OAS, securing the North American continent. Meanwhile Russia has managed to piss off everyone from the Baltic to the Caucuses to most of Central Asia with 2 seperate invasions and an ongoing war in Chechnya . While China pissed everyone off with their nine-dash line,and small skirmishes with India.

那是曾经,现在我们与古巴的关系缓和了,所以这个论点不再适用。古巴已不再有情绪爆发新的冲突,美国或美洲国家组织也不再有情绪,以确保北美大陆的安全。与此同时,从波罗的海到高加索地区,再到中亚大部分地区,俄罗斯通过两次独立入侵和持续不断的车臣战争,成功地惹恼了所有人。中国用“九段线”激怒了所有人,与印度发生了小冲突。

flashhd123
Buffer zone, the same reason ussr didn't annexed Mongolia even though in 60s Mongolia government asked to be a part of Republic. Ussr want Mongolia independence and acted as a buffer zone, if sino-Soviet war happen, Chinese force have to invade Mongolia first. The same in Korea peninsula, China and Russia want North Korea became their barrier in case ww3 happen and the west want to invade them from Japan. Blame China alone is hypocrites , the west and especially usa also don't want Korea peninsula to be completely under communist control either. Or take another example, will usa act the same if Mexico turned to communism during Cold War

缓冲区,这也是苏联没有吞并蒙古的原因,尽管蒙古政府在60年代要求成为共和国的一部分。苏联希望蒙古独立,并作为缓冲区,如果中苏战争发生,中国军队必须先入侵蒙古。朝鲜半岛也是如此,中国和俄罗斯希望朝鲜成为他们的屏障,以防第三次世界大战爆发,西方希望从日本入侵他们。只怪中国是伪君子,西方,尤其是美国也不希望朝鲜半岛完全处于共产主义控制之下。或者再举一个例子,如果墨西哥在冷战期间转向共产主义,美国也会采取同样的行动。

Peacer13
The US flipped shit when Cuba had Soviet nukes and became communist. Cuba is still being punished till this day by the US due to this.

当古巴拥有苏联的核武器并成为共产主义国家时,美国大发雷霆。古巴至今仍因此受到美国的惩罚。

sandybuttcheekss
If Korea would be friendly with the US and its allies like South Korea is. The US military would move into North Korea and set up bases seconds after uniting. This puts the strongest military in the world on China's doorstep. With North Korea there now, it's a buffer between invading western forces and northern China.

如果朝鲜与美国及其盟友(比如韩国)友好相处。美国军队会进入朝鲜,在统一后几秒钟就建立基地。这使得世界上最强大的军队来到了中国的家门口。

TheLastSamurai101
Because the US would be able to station missiles, surveillance tech and personnel on the Chinese border. This is something that the US currently lacks. Honestly, the Chinese would probably be more open to Korean reunification if they received a guarantee that US forces would pull out of the peninsula.

因为美国将能够在中国边境部署导弹、监视技术和人员。这是美国目前所缺乏的。老实说,如果中国得到美军撤出朝鲜半岛的保证,他们可能会对朝鲜半岛的统一持更开放的态度。

Shaggy0291
Because it means a land invasion can occur through Manchuria like it did before in the 30s when the Japanese swept in.
The problem with nuclear deterrence is you can't really afford to nuke your own territory.
This is a big reason why Russia was likewise extremely upset by their western encirclement through the enlargement of NATO after the fall of the Soviet Union for basically the same reason; they're concerned that their nuclear deterrent would become moot if a sufficiently large invasive force could be built up on their direct border that they wouldn't be able to eliminate the invaders with their strategic arsenal and be forced into conventional war. This is why Crimea got annexed and an undeclared proxy war is ongoing in Ukraine; the Euromaidan revolution represented such a threat to Russia by pulling Ukraine into the EU's sphere of influence, meaning that on membership to the EU Ukraine would be able to then station NATO troops on their substantial Russian border, completing their western encirclement.

因为这意味着土地入侵可以通过满洲发生,就像之前在30年代日本入侵一样。
核威慑的问题在于,你无法承担在自己的领土上使用核武器的后果。
这也是为什么苏联解体后,北约扩大后,俄罗斯也因为同样的原因对西方的包围圈感到不安;他们担心,如果在他们的直接边界上建立起足够强大的入侵力量,他们的核威慑力量将变得毫无意义,他们将无法用战略武器消灭侵略者,并被迫进行常规战争。这就是克里米亚被吞并的原因,一场未公开的代理人战争正在乌克兰进行;欧洲独立广场革命将乌克兰拉进了欧盟的势力范围,对俄罗斯构成了如此大的威胁。这意味着,在加入欧盟后,乌克兰将能够在其广袤的俄罗斯边境驻扎北约部队,从而完成对西方的包围。

OrderlyPanic
To be fair Japan would have been against a re-unified Korea either - and that was before Japan - S Korea relations hit a generational low this year.

公平地说,日本也会反对朝鲜半岛重新统一——那是在今年日韩关系降至几十年来的最低点之前。

mucow
They probably would have tolerated it more back in the 50s when Korea was still an impoverished nation rather than an economic rival.

如果是在50年代,韩国还是一个贫穷的国家,而不是一个经济上的竞争对手,他们可能会更加容忍。

juniperroot
except uniting the 2 countries would probably drive Korea into a mild recession due to the infrastructure they would have to build and droves of North Koreans that would flood south looking for work. It would just like German re-unification except much worse due to North Koreas size

除非两国联合起来,否则由于两国必须建设基础设施,以及大批朝鲜人涌入韩国寻找工作,韩国可能会陷入温和的衰退。就像德国的重新统一一样,但由于朝鲜的规模,情况要糟糕得多。

mucow
This is all hypotheticals at this point, but given the lessons of history, I doubt that reunification of Korea would use the same approach as Germany. They would probably maintain the two Koreas as largely separate countries except for foreign affairs and defense for a long time before attempting full reunification.
Also, Germany was in pretty bad shape immediately after reunification, but 30 years it's basically running Europe, so...

这都是假设,但鉴于历史教训,我怀疑朝鲜半岛的统一是否会采用与德国相同的方法。在试图完全统一之前,他们可能会在很长一段时间内,将朝鲜半岛保持为除了外交和国防以外基本上独立的国家。
而且,德国统一后的情况也很糟糕,但30年来,它基本上在管理欧洲,所以……

TeemusSALAMI
But also can we not minimize the role of the US and West in this. China needs that buffer due to increasing antagonism. Nuclear armament is the only way North Korea hasn't had the Libya Model applied to it. So much of the rhetoric we get in the West glosses over this fact, and the fact that one of the top issues Kim Jong Un wished to pursue upon his father's death was seeking peace with South Korea, which prior to the most recent election, was impossible considering previous Conservative leadership had no desire to pursue peace. Why did I have to hear this from a women's rights NGO that works transitioning North Korean women into South Korean society?
Yea North Korea is fucked up. China is doing incredibly reprehensible things (what's going on in Africa is particularly concerning). 

但我们也不能低估美国和西方在其中的作用。由于敌对情绪加剧,中国需要这种缓冲。核军备是朝鲜没有采用利比亚模式的唯一途径。我们在西方听到的许多花言巧语都掩盖了这个事实,事实上,金正恩在他父亲去世后想要解决的首要问题之一就是寻求与韩国的和平,而在最近的选举之前,考虑到之前的保守派领导人没有寻求和平的愿望,这是不可能的。为什么我要听一个致力于将朝鲜妇女转变为韩国社会的女权非政府组织这么说?
是的,朝鲜一团糟。中国正在做令人难以置信的应该受到谴责的事情(非洲的情况尤其令人担忧)。

dagrapeescape
It is the equivalent of saying the mob boss is more dangerous than the henchman. That henchman would be a nobody without the boss.

这相当于说黑帮老大比走狗更危险。如果没有老板,那个走狗就什么都不是。

KingJeremyDeWicked
that's how mafia works

黑手党就是这样运作的。

Pyrrhus272
Level 1 Crook North Korea vs Level 35 Boss China

1级骗子朝鲜VS35级老板中国。

TtotheC81
Apart from the backing of China, North Korea has a metric fuck ton of artillery within range of Seoul. Any invasion of the North would see Seoul under direct shelling within seconds.

除了中国的支持,朝鲜在首尔的射程内还有一公吨的大炮。任何对朝鲜的入侵都会使首尔在几秒钟内遭受直接炮击。

DaddyCatALSO
The idea that the North will just be "invaded" is not tenable, anyway

无论如何,认为朝鲜会被“入侵”的想法是站不住脚的

seedless0
It's not just the capability, but mainly the intent. China is the only one with explicit territorial threats to the neighboring countries (Taiwan, South China Sea, Senkaku...) in the region.
And Han nationalism is at its all time high in the recent history.

不仅仅是能力,更重要的是意图。中国是该地区唯一一个对周边国家(台湾、南海、尖阁列岛……)有明确领土威胁的国家。
汉人的国家主义在近代历史上空前高涨。

deezee72
Not that China is a well-behaved citizen of the global community, but it's just not true that China is the only country in the region making territorial threats.

这并不是说中国是国际社会的好公民,而是说中国不是该地区唯一一个发出领土威胁的国家。

Peacer13
China is the only one with explicit territorial threats to the neighboring countries (Taiwan, South China Sea, Senkaku...) in the region.
Did everyone all of sudden forget that Russia invaded and successfully annexed a part of Ukraine?

中国是该地区唯一一个对周边国家(台湾、南海、尖阁列岛……)有明确领土威胁的国家。
难道所有人都突然忘记了俄罗斯入侵并成功吞并了乌克兰的一部分?

Jay_Bonk
Well he was talking about North East Asia. And although Russia is also North East Asia, their claims and annexation was in Europe.

他说的是东北亚。虽然俄罗斯也是东北亚,但他们的主张和吞并是在欧洲。

VFsv6
Japan seeing China grow the way it has will concern them, history between the two has been a bit rough

看到中国以这样的方式发展,日本会感到担忧,两国之间的历史有点坎坷。

[deleted]
If China ever starts WWIII Japan will be one of the first victims. 

如果中国发动第三次世界大战,日本将是第一批受害者之一。

yusenye
The systematic enslavement and eradication of Chinese and Koreans during WWII was on an even larger scale than Jews and Gypsy by the of Nazis.

二战期间,中国人和韩国人被纳粹有计划地奴役和消灭,规模甚至比犹太人和吉普赛人还要大。

annoying_know-it-all
It's mostly because the Japanese government hasn't repent as sincerely as did the German government. For example, they still take issues with China and South Korea's wish to properly resolve the treatment of Comforting Women. Japanese government officials' periodic visits to Yasukuni Shrine is another.

这主要是因为日本政府没有像德国政府那样真诚地忏悔。例如,他们仍然对中国和韩国希望妥善解决慰安妇待遇的问题感到不满。日本政府官员定期参拜靖国神社是另一个原因。

gaiusmariusj
The perception that the Japanese government hasn't repented sincerely is the more fitting description.

认为日本政府没有真诚地悔过是更恰当的描述。
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